New

In a month or two I will start working full time as a "Timothy" for Pastor Salomão Pereira da Silva, a man of God I admire and love.

I might even have to move to São Gonçalo, a city across the bay.

I feel as this is a dream, and at the same time I'm in great fear and trembling.

BTW, at São Gonçalo there is a nice club with an excellent field, no turbulence.

I can see the "Cristo Salva" (Jesus Saves) on the wings of my next project flying over there, if God allows me...

Ion

Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.

"Therefore bes(Matthew, 9:37-38)
Mt

Do you believe in UFO'S.

>Do you believe in UFO'S.
No, I don't, but Jefferson once said that when people stop belieing in the bible the believe in anything...

God bless,

God Bless you Ion,
Don’t worry about a thing! God is in control. He has the “Master Plan”.
Looking forward to pics of your next project.

Good luck, dear friend.

It appears that you'll have everything you could need.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." -Mo Udall

Anyone who believes that we are the only ones in this universe needs a reality check.

Bill

YOUR NOT JUST WHISTLEN DIXIE........!

Air Force Bomber Encounter With Discs

Davis-Monthan AFB, Tucson, Arizona, May 1, 1952

Early in the 1952 UFO sighting wave two discs approached and paced a B-36 bomber in the vicinity of Davis-Monthan AFB, Tucson, Arizona. On May 1, 1952, Major Rudy Pestalozzi, a base intelligence officer, along with an airman, looked up as a B-36 flew overhead and saw two shiny discs overtake the bomber, slow to its speed and position themselves alongside.

The bomber crew, startled by the experience, made an unscheduled landing at the base and were interrogated at length by Major Pestalozzi, who happened to be the base UFO officer. Members of the flight crew had crowded into the starboard blister aft of the wing and looked down at a slight angle to see the closest disc, which was lens- or double-disc-shaped and about 20-25 feet in diameter. After about 20 seconds, the objects peeled off at an angle of 70-80 degrees from the flight path of the B-36 and sped away.

Major Pestalozzi sent a comprehensive report of the incident to Project Blue Book. Within the next two months the summer 1952 UFO sighting wave reached a crescendo, generating national headlines and stirring up major Government interest, as radar repeatedly detected UFOs, and jet interceptors engaged in cat-and-mouse pursuits.

In 1966 Dr. James E. McDonald interviewed Pestalozzi and attempted to obtain his original report from the Blue Book files, but it was missing. The report was reconstructed as carefully as possible and re-entered in the files.

PLENTY MORE WHERE THIS CAME FROM:

http://www.fufor.com/cases.htm

That was a family of 6 from the planet Zurozxc visiting the "zoo" at the far end of the galaxy. They just took photos and then left for Las Vegas and were in a show, posing as magicians. Very good ones I might add. They were not impressed with the B36 by the way.

Ion,

Go for it brother! You're in my prayers.

Is this forum really the place to start sharing religeous beliefs? Can't we leave it for what it was intended?

Bill

I agree . Please no religion or politics. It creates tension because not everyone shares the same views. I for one, at age 58, feel bad when someone tries to "save me", or convince me that I'm wrong and should vote for "XX" instead. No offense intended.

I would just say that it is freedom of speech. That is one good thing about living in America. But is seems that people have to be politically correct and can not say anything about God. It’s a shame. If this offends anyone don’t read it.

Let Freedom Ring!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-04 AT 10:26 PM (CDT)
 
It would seem that your last sentence should have been first. This is not about being poltically correct or anything like that at all. Its just that this is supposed to be a control line orientated forum and not a place to express your religion. There are numerous other forums that are geared to accept those type of posts. Lets keep it for what it is for.

Bill

It never fails to amuse me when people begin to whine and moan about politics and/or religion being introduced to this forum. Especially when what apparently is the best argument against topics which are somehow supposed to be forbidden is that they are not about CL.

This very thread contains an entertaining UFO story; I'm not sure how it relates to CL, but there it is and I'm certainly not upset about it, nor would I try to make the guy shut up.

Numerous times a bunch of us have discussed motorcycles; I am still stunned that so many knew of a personal favorite, Greeves.

Brett once gave a dissertation on how to get Coke out of a keyboard.

I have given out recipes for cabbage soup, marinated onion rings and the making of sauerkraut.

Larry Cunningham always closes with a quote; while highly entertaining, some of them are a huge stretch when it comes to anything to do with CL.

These and a great many more off-topic comments never draw more than a very mild rebuke, many times not even that.

Oh, but mention God or politics, subjects of great and continuing interest to a pretty high percentage of those on this forum, and here come the baggers, squealing like little girls over some supposed slight.

Ion and others, I admire you all for being forthright about your religiosity; I recognize this is an integral part of your lives, and so of course you make oblique comments.

Larry Cunningham and others (including myself), I understand that politics is important to us, that we follow it closely and so of course some snide comments about the "other side" flow through our fingertips.

To those who disagree, I suggest you be a lot more tolerant, a lot less hateful and mean-spirited when the religious and/or political types pop off about something they believe in and would like to share with their friends.

And if you don't like it, for God's sake and the sake of the Republic, turn the page!

So There!

Well put Dan.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-04 AT 04:25 PM (CDT)
 
No mas

Bill

nothing sparks conflict like religion or politics......except money of course.......

>nothing sparks conflict like religion or
>politics......except money of course.......

You forgot to mention Dan's Stunt News column. Single paragraphs from his column have been known to cause hysteria and mayhem.

For example, a few months back he mentioned free-flight in a column about ARF's. The aftermath of that one is still the subject of nervous whispers and rumors around these parts.

Bill Groman

Heaven forbid we dispute anything Dirty Dan says.

Bill

hey i want the recipes for cabbage soup, marinated onion rings i missed that one. good luck ion

I for one like to think that everyone on this forum in some indirect way is a friend of mine. I love to hear about everyone's everyday life and how it helps or henders their hobby. There have been many humorous and touching stories written on here that have made me feel somewhat closer to many of you that I have not personally met...Yet.

Ion is one that I have read many post from, and though sometimes I may by somewhat confused, I enjoy reading whatever he has to say. It is very obvious that he has a deep belief in god, but I in no way have ever felt that I was being preached to or was trying to be saved. I think that Ion was truely happy in something that was happening in his life, and just wanted to share it with some of his closest friends. I think it's wonderful that he would feel close enough to us on the forum that he would want to share that with us.

I for one want to wish Ion all the best. I think it's great you are moving both in a direction in your life that makes you happy, and that you may get a better flying site out of it too!

Kirk (If there was ever a guy that needed to be saved) Wicker

1. Whenever you are troubled by religious confusion...
a. Take comfort in knowing that the Lord knows who you are
1) Assuming that you have properly responded to the gospel
2) Have you responded to the gospel of Christ?
b. Take caution in making sure that you departing from iniquity
1) Assuming that you let the apostles of Christ define what is
iniquity
2) Are you continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine?

2. With this seal we have both encouragement and warning...
a. If you are saved, the Lord certainly knows it
b. If you are saved, then act like it

As we look forward to the coming of Christ, we know the Lord is faithful
(cf. 1 Th 5:23-24); but remember that we must do our part as well (cf.
1 Th 5:21-22)

LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-04 AT 04:55 AM (CDT)
 
Thew guy gets a dream job and wants to share it with his aquantices, give him a break. So it's not particularly what YOU would call a dream job, filter out that stuff yourself. Heck, I'm working a job in a print shop from 3 to 11 in the morning. Don't pay as much as the tech job, then again, doesn't have anywhere near the stress. Plus, the dew will be off the grass at the flying field on my way home. DREAM JOB for me, though most probably would hate getting up at 2 am.

Get used to the idea that if Ion is posting, there will be a religious bit in the post, thats just the kind of guy Ion is. If you don like it, don't read it. Ion will be talk about the perfect wingover and slip something about starting level, flying up past God's eyebrows and back down to level. If that's going to drive you crazy man, get some help. While my particular beliefs are nowhere near Ion's, I'm not gonna slam the guy for having them. The only religious views I have trouble with are the ones that go with hurting/molesting kids, women, dogs, goats, gnu's and certain breads of aardvarks.

I also cut my buddy Terrance slack for his postings on UFO's, he's obviously got some strong feelings about the subject. Won't catch me given him grief on the subject. I don't have trouble with the idea of otherwordly intelleginces, including ones vastlt advanced from ours. I do have problems with the idea said intellegences after traveling the vast distances of the universe then go by communicating with us with crop circles and anal probes, but that pretty much goes with the only religious views I have trouble with. Why, oh why, is it that the only 'Visitors' we attract on this planet are the 'Galactic Pervs?'

Now quit wasting bandwidth complaining that someone has stronger religious beliefs than you do, and then subsequentially getting spanked by the rest of us for being so narrow-minded.

Oh yeah, congradulations Ion, cool runnings.

>and that you may get a better flying site out of
>it too!
>

Ya know, Kirk, I hadn't given that much thought to the fact that the São Gonçalo Club has a better field!

I mean, the one I have been fllying is nice, has a very good infrastructure, but some trees about 100 feet upwind can make the air rotten during most of the day. And we can't chop 'em down, because it's located on a city park.

A turbulence-free circle sure is a apealing "job benefit"...

>Heaven forbid we dispute anything Dirty Dan says.

Dang it! There you go, bringing religion into it again!

Ted

Ion is on fire with the love of Christ. What a wonderful condition!

God bless him.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"Cunningham, you really don't know that much.." -Dan Rutherford, in California Dreamin', Larry's nightmare, from which he awoke screaming

Dan wrote:

"...Brett once gave a dissertation on how to get Coke out of a keyboard...."
=====================
Dan,

Do you think that you can remember in which thread that bit of information was contained? And, if you remember his technique, could you tell me if you think that technique would work for the coffee I spilled on/in mine a few minutes ago while reading one of your other posts? I need to know soon before my keyboard goes down.

(No Smileys, right?)

Thanks.

Ion,
When I think of you the key verse that comes to mind is Acts 22:15...

As far as the dream job goes how about Philippians 4:19?

And don't worry my friend (Matthew 6:34) you will do a fine job...

My personal key verse (that has changed from time to time) Philippians 4:8...

Phil, I'm a sucker for Philippians 4:8!

It's on my top 10!

>nothing sparks conflict like religion or
>politics......except money of course.......
You forgot to mention Dan's Stunt News column. Single paragraphs from his column have been known to cause hysteria and mayhem.

For example, a few months back he mentioned free-flight in a column about ARF's. The aftermath of that one is still the subject of nervous whispers and rumors around these parts.

Bill Groman

"There is no such thing as the wrong way to enjoy a hobby"

Bill,

True enough, although I cannot for the life of me figure out what in that column set Walt Prey off.

It was amusing, however. Amusing enough that I actually saved the tapes on which Walt left his too-kind remarks and warm regards.

I will say there was a mistake on my part in that I intended to write "lowest *common* denominator" in the paragraph to which Walt refers, but the meaning was not lost. Well, it was not lost to all.

I have wondered if Philippians 4:8 had anything to do with GMA naming his plane the "Nobler"?

Thought I should at least make a tie in to Stunt!

Some of us get nervous about maintaining the separation of church and state. (Stuka Stunt the state?) Born again Christians make me flashback to pogroms and Nazis. Sorry it's something in my past. I get nervous when in the company of any true believers. Post traumatic syndrome of a sort. It is kind to make a special place in the nest for Ion. But Cuckoos take over don't they? Apologies to Ion.

When I first started out as an "adult" two thirds of my life ago, I ran into a group of people who were real nice and friendly. Appeared to be my "best" friends. Never got over the freaky feeling I had, when one day they made it clear I was ##### to hell unless I believed as they did.

Stuka Stunt's just fine the way it is. We keep it in bounds for the most part. Politics and Religion a sidebar to the true meaning of life.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-04 AT 10:31 PM (CDT)
 
Dennis,

I'm sorry for your bad experience with some "Christians". I don't know what they taught, believed or lived but I do know that the Bible says that those who believe in Christ will be saved (live in eternity). It has nothing to add when it comes to some of the even whacky doctrines people think up to try to go along with it. The Bible also warns that no one should add of subtract from it at their own peril. The comment I need to make here is that you should read and decide for yourself, and not let some group or individual try to educate you. I can tell you that my life as a believer is on of freedom and happyness, Not that I don't have problems, I just react differently. I also as a believer am put off by the behavior of some well meaning people, and especially put off by those that claim Chritianity while writting a companion volume to the Bible to teach from. If fact the Bible warns of those that will destort the Bible. I would again say that I hope you take it upon yourself to research the matter yourself because when the Bible is taken at its face value the simple plan God laid out is something that no human would or could fabricate.

Please don't take this as some high and mighty counselling session, ITS NOT. I'm just concerned that someone might pass off what could be the greatest event in their life because some human error or deceit has turned them off.

Ion found it, I found it and quite a large contingent here on SSW including our host. I'm quite sure they all share my concern for bad experiences friends have and have had with those that are supposed to represent Jesus Christ.

Thanks Randy.

It always makes me wonder about those who want to keep the so called Church and State seperate, but are the same guys who will yell out "OH GOD!" when they can't pull out their plane from a wingover.

Acts 16

29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

Jay

Randy-

As usual, your comments are kindly and thoughtful. I had promised myself NEVER to contribute to one of these discussions, but ...I guess I am going to here. I need to emphasize first that nothing I have written below in any way indicates my religious beliefs past the 'hell' question; I want it that way and will leave it that way. I will not discuss my religious beliefs on SSW.

1) First, a response to another writer's comment: I believe that in this democracy - what remains - we MUST have separation of church and state. This is for the sake of Christians as well as agnostics, atheists, and followers of other faiths. One only has to view European history, from religious coups in England and France (where state religions were established) to the Spanish and Italian inquisitions (where religion rivaled the state in political and military power), to see the cruel and bloody result of mixing religion and politics or state. Whatever can establish state support of a religion can as well replace that religion with another. If a religion has substance, it can sustain itself without state sponsorship. If it obtains state sponsorship, it can suffer the same consequences as those it displaced. Terrible precedents.

>I'm sorry for your bad experience woth some "Christians". I don't know what they taught,
>believed or lived but I do know that the Bible says that those who believe in Christ will be
>saved (live in eternity).

2) I will never forget my experience as an undergraduate physics student, playing in a string quartet with a couple adults who informed me in a "kindly" way that that I would spend eternity in an agonizing hell if I did not *believe* in their doctrine. That was the first, but far from the last time that I was told that good deeds and an exemplary life were to no avail without belief. It was also the beginning of my independent thought on the subject. Since then, the hate spawned by some of the multitudinous religious stations of the midwest has done more to polarize me than ANY influence from the secular. I appreciate and respect your feelings, but with such people as friends, one would not need enemies. IMHO.

>The Bible also warns that no one should add of subtract from it at their own peril.

3) I am informed by my well-read wife that the New Testament books (all but one I believe) were written/assembled sometime around the third century A.D. from word of mouth. They were chosen by men who did their best, but nonetheless omitted works that did not fit their views. The apocryphal books discovered in the 1940's were among those rejected. I don't know how these men could have avoided adding to the Bible at that time, but they did. I am wondering if it is not significant that those who wrote and compiled the books of the Bible whote this admonition you have cited.

Among the omissions were those which would have certainly added to the apostles the name of Mary Magdelene. That Paul, who never knew Jesus in life, was extremely misogynistic makes one wonder. We can thank Pope Gregory (5th or 6th century?) for then introducing the doctrine that she was a prostitute. It may well be that she was in reality the first and best disciple of all. Men of God are not perfect. Here their prejudices show (IMO).

>The comment I need to make here is that you should read and decide for yourself, and not
>let soem proup or individual try to educate you.

Based on what I have written above, I tend to agree with you here, except that, past the quoted words of Jesus (also edited by men), I would read extra carefully where its first editors and compilers are trying to educate us according to their own personal views. Right up to today, we have evangelists who miss the obvious messages, for instance the one concerning camels passing through the eye of a needle.

Well, this is what can happen when religious threads occur on SSW. I have re-read this and can honestly say that very little can be gleaned about my actual religious beliefs, which are separate from my beliefs about practicers of various religions. So, please, no hate mail here. This has just been my reply to Randy Ryan, whose opinions I respect.

SK

"This has just been my reply to Randy Ryan, whose opinions I respect."

Maybe go back and read my two other post's... They were a direct reply to Ion's post... Who I have never met, but repect for making a stand for what he believes... It was not my intent to scare, challenge, raise the blood pressure, cause an emotional crisis, nor put myself in a postion to step up to the "pulpit" or in any way "convert" anyone to any cause, or any belief system for any reason.

In the future, I will send PM's to any who I what to communicatate in a more personal manner...

I would have to say that Dan said it best..."And if you don't like it... turn the page!"

There are PLENTY of other postings on this forum that there SHOULD be a little something for everyone to enjoy, learn, question and otherwise ponder... For the life of me I will never understand the emotional diatribe that has ensued following one man's expression of support and encouragement to another.

Enough said by me... Hammer away at the issue if you must.

Nuff said. Back to U/C please..........

Bill

>Nuff said. Back to U/C please..........

With all due respect, Bill. By now you clearly know what is being discussed on this thread. It is one of many. I respect the fact that you find it not of interest but the beauty of the forum is that you only read that at which you point and click.

As the saying goes..."methinks thous protesteth too much". If the thread wasn't of interest to you, I doubt you would return to it. Do I detect just a hint of interest in the topic notwithstanding your posts?

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-04 AT 02:16 AM (CDT)
 
Ted, actually the only reason I have returned to this thread and continued to post on it is that I can't believe what a can of worms I kicked over. I would have never believed it would go this far. Almost as bad ,or good, depending how you look at it, as you and Dick arguing about your handles. I guess the only difference between this one and that one is at least this one has adult minds arguing on it. With all do respect methinks you and Dick was very silly.

Bill

Wow what a thread. Ion I for one admire your constant beliefs and statement of your beliefs. I admire how it is always on the forefront of your mind and your heat and only wish I could do the same.

When I was laid off from my job in July, after finding out we were having our fisrt baby only a few months before, I did alot fo soul searching and alot of praying. My wife did to. Then she lost her job too. Then we began to pray in a different tone. We began to pray for God to show us the way he wanted us to travel. Not praying for the things we thought we needed or wanted but for him to show us the way he know was right for us then. I began to feel a peace and calm I have never ever felt in my life before and had more to be worried about than ever. Through prayer God clamed my heart and the more we gave ourselves and all of our hearts to him the easier it became to deal with situations and make decisions and do what really felt right in my heart. And when I saw my daughter for the first time I really knew then there was a Lord above who loves us all. Now I need to keep on my way with my prayer and my life will only get better. Am I saved...I am still working on it and will be for the rest of my life. Being a beliver isnt something that you say it is something you practice. If Ion lives his life the way he wirtes about it on this board knowing him would only be a REAL honor.

Why did I tell you all this story? I have no idea I guess just wanted you all to know how God has helped my family through such a tough time by showing me how beautiful life is.

Seperation of church and state. While it sounds like such a good concept it is a tough one for sure. So many of our current and past laws on the books came from religous beliefs of our forefathers. Many of our leaders make many decisions based on what they feel is right or wrong. They get thier sense of right and wrong from their upbringing and religion plays a role in that. SO to really seperate church and state would be to do away with any religous beliefs our leaders have. The only way to do that is to do away with the human. Cant be done. I saw a poll where 95%+ of people in the USA believe in higher being and good majority believing in God and yet you cant talk about it at our schools and you cant have it in our courthouses. What a bunch of crap. Anyone who actually reads the bible knows that only good can come from it. It doesnt teach you to do bad things or wrong things. It teaches you to love and respect one another. What would be so wrong about having some of the right and wrong teachings in the bible in our schools today? Many of the young children of today dont think Oral sex is even sex at all. Here in Dallas a two 7th graders were caught in engagning in this in a public school. The teacher felt her hands were tied when it came to teaching right and wrong in school today for fear of hurting someones feelings. Do you see where this is going? Also I saw on 20/20 the other night a 17 yearold who was behind bars for rape. He forced a girl to have Oral sex with him. He said on the STAND that if the President can get away with and not call it sex than so should I. Why should he have lower standards than mine. How can I be prosecuted for sexual crime when by the President of the United States standards there was no sex? I laughed outloud at the TV and at the same time I was saddened.

Seperation of church and state. Careful what you wish for it might just come true.

I have heard and read about many times the left out pages of the bible. Also this book the De Vinci Code. Well I for one belive the bible is the word of God and if it was to have those writtings in it they would be there. It's pretty much that simple.

As we look forward to the coming of Christ, we know the Lord is faithful
(cf. 1 Th 5:23-24); but remember that we must do our part as well (cf.
1 Th 5:21-22)

Wow what a thread. Ion I for one admire your constant beliefs and statement of your beliefs. I admire how it is always on the forefront of your mind and your heat and only wish I could do the same.

What are you talkin' about Doug??

You just posted some of the hottest stuff I've seen around here, including my feeble attempts to talk about Jesus!!!

Doug, I am not to be admired for clinging to Jesus, in whom I believe, nor for stating my faith. My part in the whole thing was insignificant.

And believe me, I kicked like a bronco and didn't want to go for it.

God had to prove me the I was wrong. No merit on my part except maybe the fact that I never tried to bullshit Him.

I guess that being on the level with God is the one thing He demands. The rest He takes care of.

As far as my "preaching" is concerned, I like to see myself a a bum that found a place where's free food and shelter and he's anxious to tell it to his friends.

When I was laid off from my job in July, after finding out we were having our fisrt baby only a few months before, I did alot fo soul searching and alot of praying. My wife did to. Then she lost her job too. Then we began to pray in a different tone. We began to pray for God to show us the way he wanted us to travel. Not praying for the things we thought we needed or wanted but for him to show us the way he know was right for us then. I began to feel a peace and calm I have never ever felt in my life before and had more to be worried about than ever. Through prayer God clamed my heart and the more we gave ourselves and all of our hearts to him the easier it became to deal with situations and make decisions and do what really felt right in my heart. And when I saw my daughter for the first time I really knew then there was a Lord above who loves us all.

That reminded me of my friend Alex Dias Ribeiro.

He was in the Formula 1, but at some point he was "out of business", he couldn't get enough sponsors.

He was doing fine in the beginning, and he kept thinking that "Me and Jesus will be an invincible team"...

The day he lost his hopes of a career as a formula 1 pilot he was so disappointed that he decided he was gonna be an atheist.

He went to his hotel and told Jesus:

"I'm over with you, I don't believe in you anymore!",
and feeling depressed, he went to sleep.

Some hours later the phone rang, his daughter was born!

All of a sudden he was filled with joy, praising God and laughing and crying and jumping!

He says it was the Guinness record of short lived atheism...

Now I need to keep on my way with my prayer and my life will only get better. Am I saved...I am still working on it and will be for the rest of my life. Being a beliver isnt something that you say it is something you practice. If Ion lives his life the way he wirtes about it on this board knowing him would only be a REAL honor.

Doug, I think it's the opposite. If I ever get to know you I'm the one that's gonna feel VERY HONORED!

Don't fool yourself on this issue also, Doug, I live far behind the standards I profess and "preach".

The reason Pastor Salomão asked me to work with him is not because I'm "Mr. Virtue", but because I've always been his friend, and since I trust him I tell him all my shortcomings. I think he wants me because at least he can have an idea about from which hat the rabbit is gonna jump out, he's not prone to have any unpleasant surprises...

As a matter of fact, I have found out, reading the lives of them "great men of God" that in Christianity the more you grow, the lower you go. You grow down.I mean, you might start thinking you're OK, but the more I get to know about God the more I realize how lousy a Christian I am.

Of course that gets to me and I feel the urge to get my act together.

How many times I was doing something really "praiseworthy" just to find out that my motives were pretty much rotten!

How many of my "good works" were nothing but refined sins??

It's better to be no good and admit it than try to "look good" to the eyes of God.

Just like the story Jesus about the Pharisee and the tax collector that went to the synagogue: The Pharisee's prayer was nothing else but boasting his "holiness",

"I thank you, oh God, because I pray all the time, I fast, I do this, I do that, etc. etc."

The tax collector (in those days they were all thieves), on the other hand, didn't even dare to look up, and just kept saying "Have mercy on me, I'm no good!"

Jesus said that God was pleased with the tax collector and pissed off with the Pharisee...

Why did I tell you all this story? I have no idea I guess just wanted you all to know how God has helped my family through such a tough time by showing me how beautiful life is.

Ya know, Doug, I had the feeling that your baby was gonna boost your friendship with God...

Seperation of church and state. While it sounds like such a good concept it is a tough one for sure. So many of our current and past laws on the books came from religous beliefs of our forefathers. Many of our leaders make many decisions based on what they feel is right or wrong. They get thier sense of right and wrong from their upbringing and religion plays a role in that. SO to really seperate church and state would be to do away with any religous beliefs our leaders have. The only way to do that is to do away with the human. Cant be done. I saw a poll where 95%+ of people in the USA believe in higher being and good majority believing in God and yet you cant talk about it at our schools and you cant have it in our courthouses. What a bunch of crap. Anyone who actually reads the bible knows that only good can come from it. It doesnt teach you to do bad things or wrong things. It teaches you to love and respect one another. What would be so wrong about having some of the right and wrong teachings in the bible in our schools today? Many of the young children of today dont think Oral sex is even sex at all. Here in Dallas a two 7th graders were caught in engagning in this in a public school. The teacher felt her hands were tied when it came to teaching right and wrong in school today for fear of hurting someones feelings. Do you see where this is going? Also I saw on 20/20 the other night a 17 yearold who was behind bars for rape. He forced a girl to have Oral sex with him. He said on the STAND that if the President can get away with and not call it sex than so should I. Why should he have lower standards than mine. How can I be prosecuted for sexual crime when by the President of the United States standards there was no sex? I laughed outloud at the TV and at the same time I was saddened.

Seperation of church and state. Careful what you wish for it might just come true.

Doug, separation of church and state doesn't mean that the principles over which America was built are to be thrown in the garbage.

It's a guarantee that America will keep one of the very values that made it great, religious tolerance.

Just take a look at the countries where church and state are united, like Iran, and so many other muslim states.

I don't agree with people that have other beliefs on what they believe, but I'll be darned If they don't have the right to worship whatever god they believe in!

I think, though, that issues like prayer in schools and things like this would not be prohibited if the people of America that call themselves Christians took political action.

Problem is, Doug, that America's Christians nowadays are more nominal than real ones.

People are worried more about themselves and about what other people think about them, instead of thinking first about their neighbor's well being and worrying about what God thinks about them.

I have heard and read about many times the left out pages of the bible. Also this book the De Vinci Code. Well I for one belive the bible is the word of God and if it was to have those writtings in it they would be there. It's pretty much that simple.

I couldn't agree more, Doug! If God is Almighty (He is) and He didn't make sure we got the "real Mc Coy" He wouldn't be worthy of being God! It would be a major let down!!

nd if you read the bBible and read those "left out pages" it looks so clear that they are not inspired...

God bless you, Momma Moon and little "Miss Moon"!

In Christ,

Ion (grinnin' from ear to ear because of wht he just read) Muniz

I saw a poll where 95%+ of people
>in the USA believe in higher being and good majority
>believing in God and yet you cant talk about it at our
>schools and you cant have it in our courthouses. What a
>bunch of crap.

It's too bad that 95% of Americans don't conduct their lives like they believe God.

>It's too bad that 95% of Americans don't conduct their lives
>like they believe God.
>
>regards,
>Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

You said it!! And that includes me!!

Serge,

Thank you too for you civil and thoughtful response.

I certainly didn't mean to fire up a discourse here but your comments force me to make some counterpoints.

There is a passage in scripture the says in part "all scripture is God-breathed", literally, inspired by God. I've heard many arguements for the alteration of the Holy scriptures making them untrustworthy. To that I can only reply that God used men from the beginning of time to deliver and carry out his word, today he still depends on man to spread His word. My Biblical studies include Greek and the veracity of the manuscripts that were translated into the English Bible. There ARE variations, but in every case of legitimate translation the translators made every effort to remain objective in their work. I believe God has both inspired men to record His word and inspired men to tranlate it so others could be enlightened to His love. There is a point of seperation where I can nolonger argue because as it also states in the Bible, some things are only understandable with the help of the Holy Spirit. I can't help anyone beyond directing them to the Bible and approaching it with a searching mind and heart. I can only say, as Doug has said, that since I have surrendered my life to God, it has only continued to get better, 14 years now. As the old adage says, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", some things I experience as a Christian cannot be explained.

I believe the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. As such I always weigh what a man says, even my pastor, against it. I expect when I as a laypreacher deliver a sermon that my listeners will also do the same. Also as Doug has also said, the basis for the Bible is love, God's love for His creation, it says "God is love". So, those teaching hate, or doctrine that does not square up to the scripture are in violation of the Bible's own edicts. Its really very simple.

There is no right or wrong answer to any of this and that is why it doesn't belong here in this forum.

Bill

And why not? Yes I agree that Len has given us a wonderful place to talk about planes and whatnot, but don't seen any reason to censor it. No one is forcing anyone to read anything that is posted here.
Jay

As a gentle correction, there is NO seperation of church and state clause or provision in our well thought out Constitition. Only a prohibition against A State Sponsered Religion ie; The Chruch of England. The seperation thing was coined by the press.

Thadd wrote:

As a gentle correction, there is NO separation of church and state clause or provision in our well thought out Constitution. Only a prohibition against A State Sponsored Religion i.e.; The Church of England. The separation thing was coined by the press.
======================================================
Thadd,

Every day I'm surprised to learn how many people have no concept of the founders' intent with this part of the First Amendment. It's interpreted pretty liberally, but not necessarily more liberally than the Free Speech section. That section has been interpreted to allow so much state supported obscenity that almost nothing can be prohibited outright or kept from receiving government support or being displayed in government owned or sponsored locations....all in the name of Art.

Oops! The OS is getting on his soap box. Time to climb down.

But, before I do, I just had a thought. (CL Content Coming!)

Instead of Stunt (Precision Aerobatics) contests, let's have juried art contests, after, of course, declaring that CL Stunt is an art (thereby giving the activity a legitimate standing) and that those who participate in the activity are artists, not hobbyists or sportsmen. That way, not only could we apply for and most likely receive Federal Subsidies (See the Federal 2% for art requirement in capital projects contracts.), but we could also develop a legitimate case for the need of outdoor museums in all our communities to develop and practice our art. Almost every community has at least one municipally owned or supported museum for the fixed arts. Many have municipally owned venues for the performing arts as well. Why shouldn’t they have at least one government supported outdoor museum for the fluid art of Precision Aerobatics?

New flyers could apply for some of the artist development moneys available, and competitors, er, artists would have government funded travel opportunities through the arts exchange programs, etc. We would send our Team to China, for example, to fly exhibitions, while the Chinese Team would fly exhibitions here.

I think we need to develop this concept. I’ll put my amazing mental powers to work doing so when they finally appear.

Sincerely,

I for one think American Stunt (BOM) IS an Art Form. Said so spontaneously elsewhere on the forum. (Yesterday in fact in the Neal's ARF string.) But the dirty ole boys probably think the designation too clean and girly.

The best practitioners of American Stunt combine great building AND flying skills. There are subtle asethetic evaluations and high standards in both facets of the sport. Museums (at least one or two - east coats/westcoast?), even a bit of government or private foundation funding would not be out of the question.

(Has this thread set a record for views or posts yet?)

Anyway thank you for that link, Serge...

...Jefferson and Madison fought hard for this separation because they were convinced that state involvement in religion had been a leading cause of repression and coercion throughout history. When Jefferson drafted the bill in 1777, heresy was a capital offense, Roman Catholics were excluded from civil office, and free thinkers and Unitarians were subject to be declared unfit and even have their children taken away from them.

Those who don't understand that religion and democracy are an unfortunate combination should remember this: Iran is a democracy. Its leaders (who make its draconian religious laws) are democratically elected.

In this country we have a constitutional form of government (not a true democracy) that attempts to protect the rights of all its members, including members with minority views. Usual this works, sometimes not. We should thank the founders for getting it so close to perfect, but also understand they they themselves knew it could never be perfect. Hence these debates that will never end.

Some years ago I worked with a very kind and charitable man with a nice wife and three kids. Good people. This fellow was ethnic Chinese, third- or fourth-generation Indonesian living in the U.S. with a green card. He was a devout Christian of the right-wing variety, attended one of those Wal Mart sized suburban churches. We shared an office and often had entertaining discussions about the meaning of religious freedoms, the intent of the founders, etc. His contention (no doubt obtained from the many religious tracts he carried) was that the U.S. was founded as a "Christian nation". He would not, could not accept that our constitution has much more basis in Greek and Roman systems of law than anything found in the Bible. He had never read Thomas Paine (Age of Reason, anyone?), knew nothing of the agonizing six year process of "talking this country into existence" after the revolution and all the myriad of conflicting views and motivations that had to be overcome. He had never heard any description of the founders other than as a group of devout, like-minded Protestants.

Anyway, I knew he had opinions about "fringe" religions such as the Mormons, the Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses, which in my simple mind appeared to be perfectly legitimage branches of Christianity who made their own perfectly legitimate interpretations of the scriptures. Maybe I was baiting, but I asked him once what he would do if his daughter wanted to marry (for example) a Jehovah's Witness. He got unusually agitated and starting telling me that the Witnesses are a cult. He invoked the name of Satan at one point. He made the proud claim that in Indonesia and some other countries such cults are "banned".

Wow.

He left the company soon after that discussion. It was perhaps a year later that ethnic Chinese in Jakarta (many, many of them Christian) were being beaten and killed by certain fanatic members of the majority population, a population who, as a whole, probably view their country as being a "Moslem nation" and resent the power and wealth of the Chinese-Indonesians. I often wonder if this event in any way changed his views, even slightly.

Probably not.

Interesting that you guys feel free to state your own beliefs (UFOs, "incomplete/inaccurate Bible", etc.) while chastizing Ion for stating his. Think about it.
--MM (aka Ray)

Only a response.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-04 AT 10:40 PM (CDT)
 
Ion,
I'm happy for you. May God continue to shed His blessings on you. Remain faithful my friend. Keep us posted on how it goes.

In reviewing this thread, is it not amazing how a couple protests against a forbidden subject actually resulted in a near flood of exactly what the protestors were complaining about?

Being careful about what one asks for and/or demands seems to be a suitable caution for those who have a somewhat less than tolerant outlook on certain subjects.

Dan wrote:
"...Brett once gave a dissertation on how to get Coke out of a keyboard...."
=====================
Dan,

Do you think that you can remember in which thread that bit of information was contained? And, if you remember his technique, could you tell me if you think that technique would work for the coffee I spilled on/in mine a few minutes ago while reading one of your other posts? I need to know soon before my keyboard goes down.

(No Smileys, right?)

Thanks.

The Old Sourdough
Beer Can Cove, Alaska, US of A

O.S.,

I was not able to remember, but a search of Coke, keyboard and water resulted in my suggestion that you go to: Stuka Stunt, a nice place to "hang out".

I don't know how to do the shuck 'n jive tricks--don't want to know for those considering taking me under their wing--but this will get you there.

One guess as to who started above-cited thread. Don't look! Guess first!

Thanks for the prompt reply and the valuable information.

(No Smiley, Just a big grin.)

O.S.,

You forgot to mention that I am a man of high character. But you held yourself in check when it came to the use of icons. All is forgiven.

Please forgive me that heinous omission!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-04 AT 07:04 PM (CDT)
 
I hope this link works...

I "stole" the trick from Cy!

Getting Coke out of a keyboard

It works!

Cy, you're a genius!

As a Christian my self I would like to wish Ion Gods Speed. And thanks to all of you Christians who posted on this topic as it was a great encouragement to me.

Yes I too was inspired by some of the people coming out for Ion. We should all wear our badge of honor the same was Ion does. As a former Missionary myself I pray that God will use you in every way that he can.

Romans 1

16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,<1> just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."<2>

God Bless.

Jay

The only way to be saved is to send $29.95 a month to the bible thumpers on TV!

Amen brother and hallelujah.

For Christ's sake!